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A Catholic bishop in the cradle of Islam
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An interview with Giovanni Bernardo Gremoli, Apostolic Vicar of Arabia
for twenty nine years, with jurisdiction over all the Catholics in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Qatar and the Yemen: «In the light of my experience any attitude aimed at exacerbating
the confrontation between the West and the Islamic world is useless
and dangerous» |
Interview with Giovanni Bernardo Gremoli by Gianni Cardinale
«This atmosphere overheated by the cartoons against Mohammed is
terrible. All of this violence is terrible. Christians and Muslims killed,
churches and mosques destroyed… it’s terrible. Even though it
must also be said very firmly that it is absolutely mistaken to offer
insult to any religion and any religious symbol. But, one knows, violence
evokes violence». Monsignor Giovanni Bernardo Gremoli, «a
Franciscan friar more than a bishop» he tells us, is very worried
about the ugly turn that relations between the Islamic world and the West
are taking. Not least because he has seen with his own eyes that life in
common between Muslims and Christians is possible even in what is
considered the cradle of Islam. Monsignor Gremoli was in fact for more than
thirty years Bishop Apostolic Vicar of Arabia, with jurisdiction over all
Catholics in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Qatar
and the Yemen. Well, everyone knows that in Saudi Arabia no public worship
is possible for Christians, but it is less well known however that in the
other countries of the Arabian peninsula the situation is much different
and that in the last decades churches, parochial houses and schools have
been built in those countries, and that freedom of worship has been granted
to Christians. It is precisely to recount these little known facts that 30Days decided to interview
Monsignor Gremoli, who, usually very reserved, agreed to reply because of
the deep regard he has for the director of our monthly and also because of
the confidence he has in the interviewer. Monsignor Gremoli receives us in
his humble study in the ancient Capuchin Convent in Florence, on the little
hill called Montughi from which there is a splendid view of the Medici
city. Hanging on the walls a large picture of Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, the
photos that show him with Popes Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II
(«I hope soon to be able to hang one with Pope Benedict XVI»),
as well as the photo in which he shakes the hand of Sheikh Zayed Bin Sultan
Al Nahyan of Abu Dhabi, «great benefactor of our Church».
Your Excellency, when you arrived in Abu Dhabi in 1976,
what was the situation of the Apostolic Vicariate of Arabia?
GIOVANNI BERNARDO GREMOLI: It was critical, because my
predecessor was expelled from the historical See of the Vicariate which was
Aden in the Yemen. There were few priests, just eleven, few places of
worship and it was the time of the oil boom, with thousands of Catholic
workers who from all parts of the world converged on the Gulf to work for
the oil companies and in the ever more numerous building sites for the
constructions of towns and aqueducts.
And what did you do?
GREMOLI: I immediately agreed to invite priests, also ad tempus, not only from my Order,
that of the Franciscan Capuchins, having difficulty with vocations at the
time, but also from other Congregations. Thanks be to God among the
Catholics present in the Vicariate there were young immigrants who had
already heard the call of the Lord in their homeland. So I decided to
send some of them, the most convinced, to study abroad. I sent seven and
seven came back as priests. Today they carry out their mission in the
Vicariate, which overall can count on 48 priests.
Then you faced the question of places of
worship…
GREMOLI: It was a delicate and complicated business.
Much patience and delicacy as well as a pinch of diplomacy was needed to
obtain permits and land to build churches and schools. At times four,
sometimes eight, years were needed to get positive replies. In the end
however the results came, and in some cases even greater than the
expectations.
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 | | Giovanni Bernardo Gremoli | | |
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And how was it possible?
GREMOLI: The rulers appreciated the good conduct of our
Catholics, who were always committed to observing the rules of local
communal living and showed a religious fervor that positively impressed the
local authorities. More than once I heard it said that they accepted my
requests because Catholics pray and pray a lot, they participate very
devoutly in hours of worship and in sacramental life. Finally over almost
thirty years the Vicariate has managed to build a total of eleven churches
and parochial complexes, all on lands granted freely by the authorities.
The majority of the sacred buildings were constructed in the Emirates. But
four churches were also built in Oman, where there had been none since the
nineteenth century, and one in Bahrain, where the one built in 1939, the
first in the Gulf, was by then completely inadequate.
Eleven churches built and one on the way…
GREMOLI: It’s a historic fact for two reasons.
For one thing because there was never a church in Qatar. And then because
in Qatar, as in Saudi Arabia, the people and rulers are Wahabi Muslims, a
notoriously very orthodox sect.
We’ll come back to Saudi Arabia. One of the
Vicariate’s strong points is that of the Catholic schools…
GREMOLI: I must say that our presence in the Gulf is
particularly appreciated precisely because of our schools, that have a very
positive impact on the people and the local elite. In thirty years eight
schools have been built in the Vicariate, seven in the Emirates and one in
Bahrain. All of them directed by nuns of various congregations (Indian
Carmelites, Italian Combonians, Baghdad Chaldees, Sisters of the Rosary of
Jerusalem). They are officially recognized by the authorities and much
respected both for their high level of education, as well as for the
discipline and for the atmosphere of respect and brotherhood among the
students who belong to different nationalities and religions, but also
because they are situated in modern structures, always kept clean and in
order.
What is the nature of the schools?
GREMOLI: They are open to everyone and more than 60% of
the overall 16,500 students are Muslim. The teaching staff are highly
qualified, the authorities are very demanding about that. The schools are
in fact under the control of the respective Ministries of Education –
who frequently send inspectors – as far as the curricula are
concerned, and under the control of the municipalities as regards hygiene.
Is religious instruction scheduled? According to what
criteria?
GREMOLI: There is a government obligation to impart
religious instruction for three hours weekly to all students. The schools
therefore give lessons in Islam to all the Muslim children (Sunnites,
Shiites or other sects), lessons in Christianity to all the Catholic
children and those of other Christian denominations, moral principles based
on natural law to all the non-Christian and non- Muslim children.
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 | | The photo with the dedication of Sheikh Nahyan Bin Mubarak Al Nahayan, Minister of Higher Education of the United Arab Emirates, along with Gremoli.
«To my dear Bernardo. It has been a pleasure knowing you as a friend
and man of peace and tolerance
and real fine human being and man of God.
I wish you all the best». | | |
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In these thirty years have problems ever arisen in
these schools?
GREMOLI: We have never had ethnic or religious
conflict. The atmosphere has always been one of mutual cordiality and
sympathy. So much so that when I gave up the direction of the Apostolic
Vicariate the minister of higher education of the United Arab Emirates,
where, as I have already said, seven of our eight schools are to be found
(the other is in Bahrain), Sheikh Nahyan Bin Mubarak Al Nahyan wanted
personally to express his appreciation with his signature on a photograph
that I keep among my most precious souvenirs.
Previously you said that the schools are run by nuns.
But are there other religious who are involved in charitable
activities…
GREMOLI: In the Yemen, the White Missionary nuns,
professionally very well trained, have for several years run first-aid
centers and have worked in various hospitals since 1972. Unfortunately
because of lack of vocations they had to abandon this work. Also in Yemen
the Sisters of Mother Teresa of Calcutta have been present since 1973, and
actually administer four institutes for handicapped children and abandoned
old people. For many years the Missionaries of Charity also had a leper
center in Ta’izz that housed and looked after hundreds of the sick:
because of its efficiency it was called the City of Light, so much so that
many of the sick once cured preferred to remain and live in the
surroundings instead of returning to their own villages. Both the leaders
and the Yemenite people have great appreciation for the work of the Sisters
of Mother Teresa.
Yet in July of 1988 three sisters were barbarously
killed while they went from their house to their institute in
Hodeida…
GREMOLI: It was a tragic but isolated episode that cost
the lives of Sister Zelia, Sister Aletta and Sister Michela, and that
devastated the authorities and the people. It was the work of a fanatic
returned from the war in Bosnia. The president was truly shocked by the
event, not least because it was the government itself that had called the
Sisters to the Yemen. Mother Teresa visited Yemen many times, and the
authorities of this country always considered her a saint, so much so that
at the ceremony for her beatification the government sent as its
representative a doctor, a member of parliament, who had attended the
Catholic nursery in Aden as a child. As for the Yemen, I’d like to
mention the religious who carry out their duties there.
Who are they?
GREMOLI: They are four Salesians from the province of
Mangalore in India. They are very involved in assisting the Missionaries of
Charity and the local Catholic communities. The Salesians have been present
in the Yemen since 1988 when they substituted the White Fathers who had to
leave because of lack of vocations.
We have spoken of priests, churches, schools and
religious. But how many Catholics are there in the Vicariate of
Arabia?
GREMOLI: It’s difficult to put together
statistics because of the remarkable turnover of the faithful throughout
the peninsula. According to a reliable estimate on my arrival, in 1976, the
Catholics were about 200,000, today it is calculated that at least three
million live in the Vicariate.
And where do they come from?
GREMOLI: Once, at the exit from Sunday mass in Dubai
cathedral, we conducted a census to find out the place of origin of the
faithful. We registered a good 93 nationalities of origin. However a large
part are Indians and Philippinos. The latter number about a million in
Saudi Arabia alone.
In the last years of your stay at the head of Vicariate
diplomatic agreements – previously non-existent – between the
Holy See and some of the countries of the Arabic peninsula also multiplied …
GREMOLI: In fact in 1998 the Holy See established
diplomatic relations with the Yemen, in 2000 with Bahrain and in 2002 with
Qatar. The first nuncio in this country was Archbishop Giuseppe De Andrea,
resident in Kuwait, who has recently “retired” after having
done great good. I also believe that Oman is strongly interested in
establishing diplomatic relations with the Holy See. The United Arab
Emirates represents a chapter apart. Seeing that the bishop apostolic vicar
is resident there, it is difficult for the local authorities to understand
the necessity for the presence of another bishop, the nuncio, as
representative of the Pope. For them the Vicar of Arabia is already the
representative of the Pope. So much so that the vicar himself is considered
an ambassador and participates normally at the meetings of the diplomatic
corps with the sheikh. But I don’t exclude the possibility that in
the future this small anomaly will be happily resolved.
Your Excellency, up until now we have talked of the
“joys” and “successes” that have accrued over these
last thirty years, but you yourself in your farewell speech also spoke of
“sorrows” and “failures”…
GREMOLI: I think first of all of the pain provoked by
the barbaric killing of the three dear nuns in the Yemen. Then, despite all
the support we have had from the authorities in establishing places of
worship, we must recognize that we have not been able to guarantee adequate
religious assistance to a large number of Catholics, we have not been able
to guarantee them a place suitable for services. They are the Catholics who
live in the desert, in the work camps on the pipelines or on the platforms.
Without counting then that many Christians, either because of the lack of
means of transport or lack of permission from the employers –
I’m thinking especially of Christians who are domestic helps in very
large Islamic families – don’t in fact have the possibility of
attending Sunday mass, even if for Christmas and Easter they are left free
to do so.
Regrets also for not having made converts?
GREMOLI: Our principal task is to try to keep alive the
faith of Catholics who find themselves there. It is also known that
according to the local laws any form of proselytism is prohibited and
conversions are forbidden. Therefore whenever anyone is touched by grace,
the fact cannot be given any publicity.
A delicate subject also here in the West is that of
marriages.. I imagine you have had to face the same problem in the Arabic
peninsula…
GREMOLI: Mixed marriages, between Christians and
Muslims, are actively discouraged both by us and by Islam, for many
reasons. It must in fact be remembered that by Islamic law the children
belong to the father and because of this the father must always be Muslim.
Rarely did I grant dispensations and when I did, I did so only when the
engaged couple were going abroad and the Muslim husband had committed
himself to guaranteeing freedom of religion to consort and children.
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 | | Monsignor Gremoli with the teachers of the school of Saint Joseph
in Abu Dhabi | | |
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At this point let’s talk about Saudi Arabia, a
country that has remained impermeable to any opening to Christians…
GREMOLI: Over half of our Catholics are there. It is an
area that reminds one a little of the time of the catacombs. In fact
priests are not officially admitted, nor public celebrations of mass,
except in the embassies. Catholics can pray only in their own house,
without gatherings of other people, even if they are relatives or friends.
Between 1979 and 1985 some priests who worked there
“sponsored” by some companies, were discovered, arrested,
imprisoned and expelled. Many Christians, surprised while praying together,
suffered the same fate. In Arabia in fact a religious police force exists,
the mutawa, very
efficient, that intervenes immediately when there is a suspicion that there
is a non-Islamic religious meeting. All the attempts made at every level by
various governments, by the Holy See and especially by John Paul II to
improve this situation, have not to date given any positive result.
Why this impenetrability?
GREMOLI: In Saudi Arabia a very rigid absolute monarchy
reigns and the inhabitants are Sunnites belonging to the Wahabi group, a
very orthodox and intransigent sect. They reserve custody of the sacred
places of Mecca and Medina and consider all Arabia a holy Islamic place in
which no other cult can be admitted.
Does this mean that the million and more Catholics
present in Saudi Arabia are abandoned to themselves?
GREMOLI: Well… the Holy Spirit, despite these
numerous problems and these notable difficulties, works in a wonderful way
also in Saudi Arabia. It is not opportune to go into particular cases, but
I can say that every year I was able to carry out my pastoral visit, to
administer confirmation and other sacraments, to celebrate holy masses for
many groups. I can also add that, periodically, some priest is “in
transit” in those parts and his security is safeguarded with care.
So an important role in Saudi Arabia is played by the
simple lay faithful?
GREMOLI: In effect it is they who take care of
catechism for the little ones in private houses or in other residences. The
“parish” of Riyadh is entrusted to a layman who, helped by
others, scrupulously looks after what is essential, including the parish
registers of the sacraments administered by the priests periodically
“in transit”.
Do you think that Saudi Arabia will change its attitude
in the future?
GREMOLI: It’s difficult to make forecasts. On the
occasion of the death of John Paul II Saudi Arabia also, which does not
have diplomatic relations with the Holy See, sent an official delegation to
participate in the funeral ceremonies. Another official Saudi delegation
then participated at the inauguration mass at the beginning of the
pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. We hope that these small signs may bear
fruit and that Saudi Arabia will one day permit Christians at least to pray
together according to their faith.
Your Excellency, what were the most difficult moments
in these thirty years of episcopacy?
GREMOLI: Without doubt the first Gulf war and the
recent invasion of Iraq created not a few problems. During the first
conflict all the airports of the Arabic peninsula were closed and therefore
for me it was impossible to visit our Catholics. Without taking into account that a more
hostile climate was created, not very sympathetic, in our regard.
Fortunately the decisive and clear position of the Pope and the Holy See
facilitated the resolving of our difficulties. Because many Muslims –
the more informed and honest ones – had understood that the Catholic
Church should not be confused with the West and the countries that were at
war. The same thing happened when the war that led to the invasion of
Baghdad and the fall of the regime of Saddam Hussein began.
Which Islamic figure has struck you most in these
thirty years?
GREMOLI: A figure that merits special mention is that
of the late lamented Sheikh Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan, who in 1976 agreed
that the See of the Vicariate should transfer from the historic See of
Aden, in the Yemen, to his Emirate of Abu Dhabi (see inset). But the Emir
of Qatar, the King of Bahrain and the Sultan of Oman also merit special
mention. All personages who were very benevolent towards Catholics and who
therefore deserve to be acknowledged.
Let’s begin with the Emir of Qatar…
GREMOLI: The Emir Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani received
me with great affability and openness from the time he was hereditary
prince. He always showed himself very interested in the Christian world to
the point that for three years now he has organized a Conference in Doha
between Christian and Muslim scholars and experts. On the second occasion,
that of 2004, Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran also participated who, when he was
Vatican “foreign minister”, was always close to us and of great
help. And precisely on the occasion of the second conference, in the
opening speech the Emir clearly said that for a true dialogue the presence
of all the peoples of the Book was necessary and therefore also that of the
Jews. I remember well that there were negative reactions to the
announcement, but a Jewish delegation was also invited to the conference of
2005. This fact is still extraordinary because, as already said, Qatar is a
Wahabi country. Let’s hope that this will be a good omen for Saudi
Arabia.
We’ll go on to the King of Bahrain…
GREMOLI: King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa deserves all our
sympathy and gratitude not only for his own personal openness and cordial
acceptance, but also for the merits of his successors. The dynasty that
leads Bahrain has always been benevolent toward Catholics. The
great-great-grandfather of the present sovereign, as I’ve already,
gave his permission in 1939 for the construction of the first Catholic
church in the Gulf. The father of the present king was a little upset
when he discovered that the Holy See had chosen Abu Dhabi and not his
Bahrain for the new See of the Vicariate, but then understood that it had
to do with purely logistic reasons, seeing that it would have been more
complicated for the Apostolic Vicariate to operate from an island, which
Bahrain is.
And now a memory of the Sultan of Oman…
GREMOLI: Every time we asked authorization of Sultan
Sayed Qabus ibn Said for the construction of a new church, he always wanted
to know precisely how many Christians there were, and when he discovered
that they were many he was always generous in granting sites. I remember a
long meeting I had with him: with fraternal cordiality he wanted to know
how Catholics found themselves in the Sultanate, what their problems were.
On the same occasion he assured me that for him all the immigrants were
very valuable people, to be helped and treated with justice and benevolence
«because» he said «it is they who have contributed to the
development of the country and we must be very grateful for this».
But are these figures you mention exceptions or are
they fully representative of the countries they govern?
GREMOLI: I believe they are representative of the
mentality of these countries, even if in these last years I have had
occasion to notice a doubtful change. I don’t want to say that
relations with the authorities and the people have worsened. But there is
somewhat less of the great familiarity that there was previously.
Why?
GREMOLI: The fault of the negative influence of
fundamentalist groups that have come from outside. Groups that are not
officially present in these moderate countries, but that don’t fail
to make their negative influence felt.
According to you what might be a constructive attitude
towards the Islamic world?
GREMOLI: Dialogue and a greater reciprocal
understanding. The dialogue must be especially about religious subjects.
Personally I think that imposing dialogue about political, cultural or
historical subjects is still too complex and risky. Religious dialogue must
concretely aim at promoting freedom of worship and respect for the symbols
of the various religions. It must aim at an agreement for the
absolute condemnation of the destruction of churches or of mosques. Here
giving an example is Benedict XVI who, during the Angelus of 26 February,
condemned the acts of violence that recently broke out in Nigeria without
differentiating between “Islamic violence” and “Christian
violence”. The leaders of the two religions should also contribute to
favoring greater reciprocal understanding. There is much ignorance on one
side and the other. Not everyone knows, for example, that not only the
Muslims but also Christian Arabs in their prayers and liturgy turn to the
Lord calling him Allah. So when Western Christians are ironical about
Allah, in reality they also offend Christian Arabs.
According to you is there a need to demand reciprocity
of the Islamic world?
GREMOLI: Reciprocity is a fine thing. Complete
reciprocity is obviously to be desired. But we must be realists. Today we
cannot demand reciprocity on non-essential, marginal things, which
sometimes not even Muslim groups who are a minority in their own countries
enjoy. And I believe that the essential is the freedom to be able to
practice one’s own religion, to have a place of worship, to be
respected as sons of God. Therefore, for example, if the authorities grant
me permission to construct a church on the condition that no Christian
symbols appear outside it, I cannot be so intransigent as to ask that the
church in question have a high bell-tower with a cross at the top.
Otherwise I also place the authorities who were benevolent towards us in
difficulty and the concession that was granted me is annulled…
There are still those who can’t understand why in
Rome Saudi Arabia financed the construction of a large mosque while it
doesn’t admit any church on its own soil…
GREMOLI: The mosque in Rome is fine where it is. Also
because, even though financed for the most part by Saudi Arabia, many
Muslims from other countries where we Christians are allowed to have places
of worship use it. And then the permission to build it was requested by the
then King Feisal, a sovereign of great openness also towards Christians,
and who was perhaps killed precisely for these openings.
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 | | The Holy Mass celebrated at the school of Saint Joseph in Abu Dhabi
at the farewell ceremony for Bishop Gremoli | | |
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Your Excellency, here in Italy politicians such as the
President of the Senate Marcello Pera, journalists such as Oriana Fallaci
and artists such as Franco Zeffirelli propose a more vigorous confrontation
with Islam, wanting almost more pride on the part of the Christian world.
Like you, they are Tuscans…
GREMOLI: Frankly I don’t want to fight with
anyone. They are attitudes that I respect. But which in the light of my
experience I find barely understandable. Apart from the possible good
intentions, to accentuate the confrontation between the West and the
Islamic world is useless and dangerous. On some moral and religious
aspects, Muslims have much to teach us also. Therefore there is little to
be proud about. And then strength and prudence are Christian virtues, pride
no.
Do you fear a “war of civilizations”
between Islam and the West?
GREMOLI: God forbid. The King of Bahrain, during the
conference on Islamic-Christian dialogue celebrated during his reign in
October 2002, said: «We, at today’s historical juncture, have a
tremendous opportunity to converge again on new and essential purposes,
supporting the values of tolerance and harmony, and emphasizing the need to
oppose extremism in all faiths». I subscribe to this fully. I believe
it is essential to avoid confrontation between two great realities, the
Christian and the Islamic, that could have disastrous consequences for
everyone.
You were the last of a series of five bishop apostolic
vicars of Arabia, all Capuchins and all of Tuscan origin. Now your
successor is a Swiss friar, Paul Hinder.
GREMOLI: In the choice of my successor the Order of
Capuchins, with its minister general John Corriveau at its head, gave the
best it had available. Bishop Paul was for ten years assistant to the
minister general, he knows five languages and is studying Arabic, he has a
degree in Law and Theology, and is a man of great experience. He was my
auxiliary for a year and I had the opportunity to admire his faith and
human capabilities. I am certain that he will do great good.
Your Excellency, a last question. Do you miss the
atmosphere of the Arabian Peninsula?
GREMOLI: Pointless to deny it, a little yes. I left a
lively Christian community, that lives its faith with joy, that looks to
the future full of hope. Just think that in the parish of Saint Mary of
Dubai alone, in 2005, 550 confirmations and 850 first communions were
administered, 4,200 children attended weekly catechism and during the
Paschal triduum a hundred thousand holy communions were distributed. Here
among us the situation is certainly not as comforting…
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